locing in with the kick drum

bassmaster · Goldfish Joined: 07 Jul 2003 Posts: 60

Hey everyone, i play in a rock band and was just interested to know of n e particular techniques u have for locking in with the kick drum. n e suggestions on timing, being able to hear the drum better and writing exciting bass lines which are in time with the drum would be greatly appreciated. thanx
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SteveJazz · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:38 am Post subject:

Excellent question, and key to having a good band sound. An "exciting" line can be simple or complex, depends on the song and the support called for in the tune. Do a lot of listening to the greats.

Your drummer must play a consistent bass drum pattern during various parts of the tune. Pattern A (doom---doom/Doom) during the verses, Pattern B (doom--doom---doom) during the bridge, for example. And here's a real secret that your drummer will love. When the drummer plays a fill, resist the temptation to "play along" with the fill. Hold your normal pattern through the fill, that's how you build and release tension. Plan all the spots where the drums or the bass will fill, and stay out of each other's way. The mark of a mediocre bar band is when the bass player plays 16th notes along with the drummer's 16th note fills on the snare and toms. Ugh!

One of my favorite tricks, in practice or on stage, even in the studio if possible, is to watch the drummer's foot. If you are experiencing "flam" this will help. Flam is that flat tire sound when you and the bass drum are almost hitting as one, but not quite together.

The other great tool is to record the band, or even better, record just you and the drummer. You will learn a lot from that. If you want to really sound good together, you and the drummer should have practice sessions just for the two of you.

SJ Cool

bassmaster · Goldfish Joined: 07 Jul 2003 Posts: 60

hey thanx alot for ur suggestions they are really helpful. also i was wondering what could be done on the bass players part as far as locking in with the kick drum as well as filling out the sound. we are a one guitar band and basically alot of the rhythm duties are stripped back and placed upon me. do u advise writing lines where only some of the notes u play lock in with the kick drum, ive heard alot of one guitar bands such as creeds older stuff and they had a bassist who was very good at rhythmically locking in with the kick drum but also playing his own lines that would follow the vibe of the guitar and play counterpoints to the melody of the vocalist.
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rock on!

SteveJazz · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:01 pm Post subject:

Interesting term, that "filling out the sound." Trio work is a challenge, but has it's blessings too. In the trio setting, try not to dwell too much on creating a wall of sound on everything. A great musician once said something like: It's not the notes, it's the spaces between the notes that make the music great. Just food for thought. Some tunes (and sections of tunes) cry for a wall of sound, some need space and sparse playing. You will have to judge.

Your idea for melodic insertions is fine, as long as they support the song. Recording is the way to determine if your melodic adventures are adding something good, or hindering the overall sound. I hear a lot of my parts properly only when they are played back to me. When I am in the act of playing, my concentration is in a different space.

Find a good blues or jazz singer, and write or arrange a song or two to be performed with just vocal and bass. Record that and listen. I played one of my tunes for a music store owner the other day, singing and playing the bass, and he said: "You could perform that song just that way, just you and the bass, it works!" I thought to myself, if it wouldn't work that way, I have not created a decent bass part.

I'm giving you some ways to approach your questions without only thinking technically about them. I don't want to confine you. If you keep thinking the way your questions are indicate, you are going to do very well. Listen to Dusty Baker (ZZ Top) and use headphones. Listen to the entire sound, the band sound. He's great at creating an unshakable foundation, a bridge between the drums and the guitar, your first job.

SJ Cool

supermau · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:17 am Post subject:

If you want to hear a great rock trio then I suggest checking out Gov't Mule's album "Dose".

It's amazing what a sound these three guys make together. The bassist (Allen Woody) is all over the place, in a good way of course.

bassmaster · Goldfish Joined: 07 Jul 2003 Posts: 60

sounds good ill have to check it out, its interesting that they would record as just a trio, in most one guitar bands thier are usually two guitar parts submitted by the guitarist. and thats partly the reason trios never sound great live- they dont have that same dynamic they have on the record
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rock on!

gibson_thunder · Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 11:36 am Post subject:

The best trio of all time IMO was Grand Funk Railroad...After you listen to their "Live Album" you might start thinking differently about the way trios sound live. Ive NEVER heard so much energy put into a song, recorded or live, than "Inside Looking Out". They sound 1000% better live than on a studio recording.
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--==Warum tut es weh, wenn ich pinkele?==--

JoEBaSS · Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 6:54 pm Post subject:

When i first started playing... I played punk so the first time I actually got to play with a drummer which was a cool experience I sat on the ground near the bass drum and practically put my ear up to the bass drum head. That worked

SAguitar · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:24 pm Post subject:

Synching with the bass drum is the secret to a tight groove. I always try to position myself where I can still see the drummer's right foot if I can. That helps. And it helps to remember that his notes occur when he hits the drum, and yours actually occur as your finger (or thumb) releases the string. Just thinking about that sometimes helps me to sync in tighter with my drummer.
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Ninestring · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:43 am Post subject: Re: locing in with the kick drum

SAguitar · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:27 am Post subject:

Gary, very impressive resume there! And a good tip to play with a metronome. Not enough players rehearse with the aim of keeping excellent time. A good electronic drum machine can be more entertaining to accompany in my view, and can help you think up new lines.
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Tone. It's what's for dinner.

"Arroooooww!"

Ninestring · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:27 am Post subject:

I think drum machines are great to practice with. I like the metronome because it really puts your playing under a "microscope" If you play quarter notes along with it ,quietly ,you can really practice "canceling out " the metronome's click with your note. With practice ,it will seem like there is no metronome .When you reach that point ,it is a stange experience.You are really locking in. You need to be at the same volume ( no amp ) as the click to really tell where you are atwith your progress.

I think it is everyone's job to keep time , not just the drummer . The trick is that the band has to agree to what the tempo is. A four bar count of at a practice allows everyone to agree what the tempo is . I prefer to hear the bass drum and not rely on watching it.Playing with a click eventually keeps you from speeding up or slowing down.

With that in mind ,a drum machine becomes fun and easy to practice the basic "grooves " because the time issue is under control and you can concentrate on the bass drum pattern .
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Garry Goodman
http://garrygoodman.com
40 years playing bass guitar

SAguitar · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:45 pm Post subject:

Good advice, Ninestring. It truly is a wonderful thing when you can play with a rhythm section that can keep time, because then you can mess with it. In some styles you gotta lay behind the beat, and in some you can push a little ahead of it and build tension that way. I have a great time with that when I've got a drummer I can count on to stay there and not follow me. A few weeks ago, I was playing with a drummer who was having a problem slowing down that day. The band leader turns to me and asks me to help speed up the tempo a little. Interesting thing is, that tune was a reggae-type feel where the bassman is s'posed to play behind the beat, and he's asking me to push ahead of it! It felt really weird!
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Tone. It's what's for dinner.

"Arroooooww!"